Didn't God say he had to die (for our sins) so the Jews and Romans were just doing gods work.

Bob is going to hate me now
bob you hate me don't you bob, bob you do don't ya hate me bob.

Pretty much what he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm not doubting in this thread what Jesus was, or what he did - that isn't the debate here.

The thing is, the Catholic church for centuries blamed the jews for killing Jesus. Why exactly?

It's in the scriptures isn't it - quite plain - that Jesus was meant to die for sins etc - it was planned all along. So why did they have to blame the jews?

Couldn't be because the Catholic church were intolerant murdering hateful bastards, lining their own pockets, getting rich with their palaces - and missing perhaps (or conveniently overlooking) the fact that Jesus mixed with the poor, came for the sinners, mixed with the outcasts, thieves, prostitutes, and would surely not condone the building of huge palaces to his glory - could it.

Oh let's blame the jews because they are different. Let's burn witches because they are a threat to the church (never mind that this set back medicine in europe for hundreds of years - what did they think witches were doing with their herbal "potions"), let's burn protestants at the stake, men women and children, just because they are different - doesn't matter they still worshipped Christ does it!
Let's launch crusades against the muslims - never mind that they regarded Jesus as a great prophet, never mind that they were light years ahead of Europe in culture, learning and medicine at the time (Ignore nowadays for a moment here - the obvious comment can see coming a mile off!!).

The above is irrelevant, to this thread no matter how well meant it is, the question is "Who killed Jesus?"not why, where or how.

The answer to that question according to the Bible is The Jews, it may or it ay not be at Gods behest, it was certainly the Jews that killed him, that indisputable.

Are you saying that the Romans had no part in it?

Thats my opinion yes, the Romans washed their hands of the affair, and clearly put Jesus's life in the hands of the Jewish people of the day. They had their choice of who was to die, they chose Jesus.

Thats assuming that Jesus did die of course, there has been a case made that he did not actually die at all, but if he did it was at the behest of the Jews.

If the Romans had washed their hands of the affair, then surely they would had done nothing & released him. They also didn't have to do what the Jews told them to do, they could do whatever they liked.

So the Romans captured him, put him on trial, sentenced him, put a crown of thorns on his head, nailed him to a cross & pushed a spear in his side. But still remain blameless. That's some weired sense of justice you've got there.

Yes l take your point, but it was the Jews that condemn him to death, would you disagree with that?

Yes, I would disagree with that. When hanging was still used in this country, there were several miscarriages of justice where the wrong person was hanged. Nobody blamed the jury in the trial, who reached the best decision they could with the information given to them. The fault was completely with the police & the justice system who failed in their job & sometimes deliberately prosecuted someone they knew to be innocent.

The mob were given a straight choice & chose Jesus. But it was a Roman decision to execute & it was Romans who carried out their decision. I find it perverse that the Romans get none of the blame.

Who cares?

It has been speculated by many a writer that Jesus wasn’t actually the son of god and that he lived in a time of great political upheaval, and also he was more of a political activist than a holy man trying to affect changes.
Because we live in a time of mass communication people are starting to interpret the bible in ways that could not have been possible twenty years ago. Historians, researchers and writers are looking into the past to piece together what could have happened around the time of Jesus and who might have been responsible for his death.
After the death of Alexander the great, the lands he left behind were divided up amongst generals, who spawned a number of dynasties including one called Seleucids. Part of this clan was a fellow called Herod who made himself king of the Jews after marrying Miriamne the last princess of the Maccabean royal family. He then proceeded to wipe out the rest of the royal dynasty and spawn his own blood line which led to the birth of the Herod we have all read about in the good book or Sunday School.

The Jewish people of course hated Herod the tetrarch of Galilee. In the eyes of the Jewish people his worst sin was the execution of the Maccabean royal family and replacing their priests with his own which he called Pharisees. So there you have the political lines drawn in Judea at the time of the Birth of this Jesus Christ. In power you had Herod Antipas backed by the Armies of Rome. And all around them you have the Jewish People – Hebrews and Israelites all praying for the arrival of the Messiah a Jewish King to lead them. Most of these factions screaming out for the independence and a land in which they can self rule, away from their Roman Overlords. Any of this sound familiar in the modern world, The West Bank Palestine, Israel?

One of the many sects that were around at the time was a group called the Nazarites or Nazarenes, which is really scary because when you take the word Nazarites and remove a number of letters you end up with NAZI (Ouch) They had set themselves up as a small community in Jerusalem. A community strictly law bound, a community of righteousness, founded upon the expectation of the coming of the Messiah. One of the main group leaders was a man called Yeshua Ben David who we all know as Jesus. However these facts are yet to be established so don’t quote me. This Yeshua Ben David never once proclaimed himself to be the Messiah or the son of god.

Moving on to who actually killed Christ, well it’s been claimed that the Jews Murdered him, however it has also been speculated that at the time of his crucifixion not one Jew had even heard of this fellow named Jesus Christ. In fact it was years after the death of this men that people suddenly started to hear about Jesus Christ, through St Paul or Saul as some people like to call him. And then he was referred to as Jesus the Christ. And the word Christ is actually Greek in Origin ‘Christos’ meaning redeemer of things, Paul personalized the name Christ to Jesus.

Crucifixion was a Roman punishment the Jew supposedly never used it. At the time this punishment was used on a wide variety of people, criminals, politicians and political activists, and Jesus was counted as an activist. But beyond his immediate friends and family no one knew he’d been put to death, or even cared.
One thing that is certain and that is a lot was going on around the time of this Jesus chap. Why is totally unclear to me. One question I have is if this man was such an influence then why did it take a few hundred years for the Christian faith to gain a foot hold, and it still hasn’t got a true foot hold today if you count the number of religions about.
Most of what I have written hear has been pieced together from various novels and text, so I submit nothing is concrete, just like the Bible

Whether one believes the Bible to be a factual account of these events or not, is irrelevant. What amazes me is that people today read this account of the death of Jesus & then blame the Jews without apportioning any blame to the Romans. It doesn't make any sense.

Look who's back: the forum's Mahatma Gandhi.

Hey Bob, congrats on being a joint winner of the BUKF award for "most attractive male member."

Are you saying that Jews had no involvement in the Death of Jesus at all?

Well if they didn't it would me the generations of jewish persecution are meaningless, and the jews are hated by Muslims for battling muhammed. If i can remember rightly.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the Romans played the bigger part & yet get none of the blame.

Of course you are correct eric, but the point is i think, that the Jews who condemned Jesus to death were more disliked for the fact that they turned one of their own over to the Roman invaders, its not some thing that any decent person would do, it was an act of treachery.

Could judas be an example of the race of jews in one person,

If the judas handed jesus over, and the jews did, could judas be the jewish race?

You know Fire some times your posts seem really mixed up, and this is one of those times, would you care to run that by me, a little clearer?


By the way, are you no longer a Mod?

TT dont do that, i was worried. I over-react on msn all the time. Usually it helps, like foresight...

Well my reasoning is that Judas may not of existed, he was there to personify the jewish race. Because we have established that jesus was handed to the romans by the jews, But who gave the jews Jesus? Judas.

So if that judas was a single person, but the jewish race. This could be another cover-up orchestrated by the church.

Mmm thats a deep one Fire, well thought out mate, very interesting thought so it is, but ime a\fraid ime clever enough to answer that one.

But where is your answer?

Hey eric, that bird youve got pinned just below your name, ime sure i took her out a wile ago, if it were,nt her it must have been her mother.

Thank God it wasn't anyone else.

It wasn't me so don't go pointing the finger.

you are Romans aren't you?
it seems amazing that the killers had turned to accusers so quickly.

Hi... first post here... and as a Jew I thought this was a pretty good place to start.

Jesus was viewed very much as a trouble-maker and a rabble-rouser. The Jewish heirarchy feared he would use the Roman occupation to make the people (who were just about ready for a new Messiah to fight against the occupation by Rome) rise up against both the Romans and the strict discipline of their religion. It seems the main antagonist against Jesus was Caiaphas. As much as the Jews wanted rid of Jesus, they had no laws in Judaism to be able to put him to death... so they handed him over to the Romans. Pontius Pilot had a pretty good idea he would take the blame for the execution and the Jews would have their dirty work done; that's what the whole "hand washing" thing points to.

I am going with Colonel Mustard in the Billard Room with the lead piping?

Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.
“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

(John 11)

Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials arrested Jesus. They bound him and brought him first to Annas, who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year. Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jewish leaders that it would be good if one man died for the people.

(John 18:12-14)

Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said.”

When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby slapped him in the face. “Is this the way you answer the high priest?” he demanded.

“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?” Then Annas sent him bound to Caiaphas the high priest.

(John 18:20 - 24)

Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.

(John 18:28)

They speak very good English, don't they?

According to the teachings of the Catholic church the Ancient Romans did indeed kill Jesus, but this has been disputed even though the Vatican will diss it like they do most things that don't suit their agenda. I have a video 5HRS and 11MINS long and currently looking for a free file host that will take a 1.5GB file so i can share it as it tells us who Jesus was and you would be astounded. According to this video Jesus was actually removed from the cross alive, put into the Tomb and later removed by others in order to save him,once i find a suitable host i will post the link on this thread my friend

Hmmm...who killed Jesus?

My God has a hammer, yours got nailed to a cross...Next question.

this is not a controversial issue. he is alive and remain.

It is if you're a Jew getting all the blame for it.

Isn't the fact that there's no proof that JC ever even existed going to make the question "who killed Jesus?" a silly one?

but there is a proof, not only testimonials - they even found his grave
it is in the most obvious place in his family burial cave.
this should have eliminated all this nonsense about "he never existed".

That "evidence" is widely disputed.

No, it's not silly. Whether Jesus existed or not is beside the point. The belief that the Jews killed Jesus has been used as an excuse to ostracise & slaughter Jews for centuries. It hasn't happened to Italians who are the descendants of the Romans & who are supposed to be the ones who actually carried out the execution.

Then you are asking who metaphorically killed jesus rather who actually committed the act?

And it's still a silly question, because evidently according to quite a few religions, he's not dead.

So even if Ai21 has posted a pic and link to where he should have been buried, Ai21 should have said "This is where he would have been buried if he was a human, and not as many believe a god..or son of a god...or his own father, and didn't stay there but flew off on a cloud 3 days after he was taken off the cross."

Are you seriously asking me to take the topic seriously?

[quote name='Harlequin' date='Nov 3 2011, 06:46 PM' post='448617']
[quote name='rederic' post='448616' date='Nov 3 2011, 07:07 PM']

No, it's not silly. Whether Jesus existed or not is beside the point. The belief that the Jews killed Jesus has been used as an excuse to ostracise & slaughter Jews for centuries. It hasn't happened to Italians who are the descendants of the Romans & who are supposed to be the ones who actually carried out the execution.
[/quote]


[quote]Then you are asking who metaphorically killed jesus rather who actually committed the act?

And it's still a silly question, because evidently according to quite a few religions, he's not dead.

So even if Ai21 has posted a pic and link to where he should have been buried, Ai21 should have said "This is where he would have been buried if he was a human, and not as many believe a god..or son of a god...or his own father, and didn't stay there but flew off on a cloud 3 days after he was taken off the cross."

Are you seriously asking me to take the topic seriously?[/quote]

You're still not getting it. It's not about whether Jesus existed or not. The point is that lots of people think he did, & that the Jews killed him. This has historically been used by various religions as an excuse to kill Jews. You may not take this seriously but the Jews who were being killed probably did.

Then the answer is simple, Jesus threatened the authority of the controlling powers (religious) and they did a hatchet job on him, he got nailed to a cross and a Roman stuck a spear in him (which was the mortal blow).

The rest is just pseudo religious politics, power games and bigotry.

it seems that he managed to elude death after all.
I've just seen him in the adult section trying to seduce a married woman.

it seems he just doesn't learn:
lesser things got him kicked out of the Yeshiva 2000 years ago...

Jews are the main culprit..

I am not dead,

Let's see if you can follow this line of illogic..

If you stand on a railway line as a speeding train is coming, and you don't step off the line (even though there is nothing to stop you doing so), then it is suicide.

Jesus knew he was going to be caught, betrayed, tried and crucified, he did nothing to prevent this.

That makes it suicide.

People who commit suicide cannot get into heaven (your rules, not mine)...therefore Jesus (and according to some religions Jesus is God), cannot be in heaven.

Do you know I actually agree with you on this,

You cant tell the facts that what really happened at that time. To know the truth we have to go back in history 2000 years back, then only we are able to know who actually killed Jesus. 2000 years is quite a long time and facts keep on changing now and then.

Please ask him to refrain from such behaviour in the future.
It is quite vulgar,
and it create a lot of problem for my people...