I believe in God, not an old man with a beard, but a higher power, a metaphysical entity.

I’m not a Bible thumping, fire and brimstone, finger pointing, people damning believer. I live a libertine lifestyle in a libertine city and most of my friends are non-believers, atheists or agnostics.

But I believe in God.

Now, it is fair to challenge me to offer up, if not a scientific explanation, at the very least a rational one, for my belief in God.

To be honest, I cannot scientifically or rationally explain my belief in God. I certainly have no direct evidence that God exists. I’ve never seen God. So I have no evidence, no rational explanation. Pretty weak, eh?

When we chat about these issues, my atheist friends mock me for being so gullible – and I must admit they have an arguable basis for mocking me.

But then I ask them what they believe. They believe in science.

What is the scientific explanation for how the universe began, for how matter – infinite matter – came into being from nothing?

First there was nothing, and then there was an infinite universe. How does science explain that?

Science tells us that it all happened randomly.

Science tells us that a "big bang" occurred randomly and created an infinite universe.

Rationally speaking, I believe that to say the infinite universe came about from nothing owing to a random "big bang" is as far-fetched, if not more so, than believing in God.

How does science explain the complexity and the symmetry of nature, starting with our solar system?

How did the random "big bang" create the symmetrical rings of Saturn?

How did the random "big bang" create gravity?

Randomly? Come on.

And how does science explain the incredible symmetry and complexity of earth itself?

How does science explain the myriad flora and fauna, with their myriad shapes and colors and symmetry?

Evolution? Come on. Notwithstanding the title of his book, Origin of Species, Darwin did not purport to explain the origin of species; he only explained how certain traits within a species develop or recede based on natural selection, i.e., what is most conducive to survival and procreation.

How did intelligence come about from no intelligence without intelligence? Science can’t answer that question.

How did human free will come about? By that I mean the choices we all make every day that cannot be attributed to evolution or to a survival instinct – like posting in this forum. That’s free will. Science can’t explain free will.

How does science identify and quantify love? Science can’t.

In my opinion, it is the height of arrogance to believe that humans on earth are the only or the most intelligent form of life in the infinite universe.

Compared to the random "big bang" and the other explanations science has come up with about the universe and about earth, it seems much less far-fetched to believe that someone was born without sex and came back from the dead.

Just my opinion . . .

Many of your questions have a good basis. And no one, Einstein included, has come close to explaining gravity. It seems to defy the Big-Bang theory. Mind or spirit (soul?) has absolutely no contemporary explanation. But a lot of the other questions you ask have answers in empirical, observable, measurable phenomena.

I will give you this much: science has become a religion unto itself. A lot of science is nothing more that a belief in an epistemology (how do we know), which compels a certain ontolology (what do we know).

I think gravity might be linked to magnetism...

The earths core is made of Iron (which is oneof the NCIS nickel, cobalt, steel and iron). As people now know we are ulled towards the centre of the earth. So maybe magnetism is involved...

Just a thought.

I ultimately think that science won't kill a belief in intelligent creation, but that it has a real potential to lead us to understanding how that intelligent creation came about. The colonization idea, of this planet, I can see that as - in fact - a pretty credible explanation, and the answer may be that it was a mix of evolution and some outside interference that helped us make that leap. If that inference came from another planet(s) then that's from the heavens innit? And that is where we think God is from.

Science has no explanation for consciousness or even what life or death is. They can define it, but not expalin it. At what point did I come into existence? At the moment the egg was fertilised by the sperm? or at some other moment?

Whatever a person believes it requires faith, and that means believing something without the proof to back it up.

If you have ever spoken to a quantum physicst and heard the mind boggling theories they are developing frankly it seems more far fetched than the belief in a 'God' or 'Supreme Consciousness' or whatever concept used to define the indefinable.

Appraently the first man and woman were created 90,000 years apart. I lernt that from QI.

What about the Halo theory? Humans are the descendants of the Forerunners?

Yer, there was a cold shower in the garden.



What is the halo theory, fire? Fill me in.

The forerunners are these things that used the halo weapon to destroty all sentient life in oreder to defeat the Flood. This killed the forerunners. And it turns out we are the descendants of the forerunners.

But how do you know there were only four runners? and why were they running, were they being chased?

i wonder if i should delete that post? naa freedom of speech and all.

look at them on Wikipedia, i think that could explain the life of the universe.

Or we could be in a fishbowl with a very old man watching over us.

Hmmm… isn’t that what the Romans believe?

Nahhhh, they believe that God zooms around the world really fast on a Mark III superjet 'Cloud', with a large notepad taking notes of everything naughty we do, and keeping a tally of the number of spankings we are gonna get in purgatory. My bottie feels raw just thinking about the paddling I'm gonna get

That much eh?

i think bob cant wait

I understand butt plugs might be involved.

Debs stop turning bob on

"That deep emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

Albert Einstein


"Small amounts of philosophy lead to atheism, but larger amounts bring us back to God."

Francis Bacon


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Albert Einstein


"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."

C. S. Lewis


"You see many stars at night in the sky but find them not when the sun rises; can you say that there are no stars in the heaven of day? So, O man! because you behold not God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God."

Voltaire


"The very impossibility in which I find myself to prove that God is not, discovers to me his existence."

Voltaire


"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

Albert Camus


"I have only ever made one prayer to God, a very short one: O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."

Voltaire

Or as Muhammad was asked "what does god look like?"

He replied "look at the sun"

The first man couldnt...

Muhamm. explained "if you cannot look at gods creation how can you look at god?"

Zoro just for you .

TT does that apply to me?

Personally i think that people follow religion out of fear and fascination (Rudolf Otto, 1917 The idea of the holy ).

Of course not Fire, your a Yorky, almost a God.

Some cracking questions there Zoro.

I am a huge fan of science, and I think science is used all too often to destroy, which is a very bad thing. I also accept that science has yet to answer some of the most fundamental questions of our time such as where we come from.



There is a company in Switzerland called Cern which is currently conducting experiments to create the first moments after the big bang. They’re trying to find out how our universe was created. There is a similar plotline in Dan Brown’s Angels and Demons in which a scientist working at Cern is trying to create the first particles. However this man is both a scientist and a holy man and is trying to prove that if man can recreate the universe then it is possible that our universe was created by a higher being.

However your first question has made me come up with a question. ‘What actually is nothing?’ ‘how has science defined what ‘nothing’ is?’ Is ‘nothing’ an empty space devoid of particles, dimension and time? If this is so, then how can we create ‘nothing’ in order to create ‘something’ e.g. the first particles after the big bang. It’s all very well having a few trillion particles at your disposal and collide them so that they create the first atoms and what-not. But in order to recreate the actual big bang you need to create ‘nothing’ which to me is impossible.
Yes science tells us that it happened randomly and that there are universes being brought into being all the time, but it still doesn’t answer the question of how ‘something’ can be created where ‘nothing’ is absolute. (Anyone got a couple of Nurofen handy?)



Okay I will try and guess what you asking here, please feel free to slap me down if you need to. Are you asking if everything created has a purpose: e.g are trees green for a particular reason? Is there no such thing as randomness. Joe Smith wins the lottery because he was meant to not because his numbers came up randomly: therefore giving forward the theory of predetermination = the possibility of everything whether it be animal mineral or vegetable having some sort of interwoven destiny. (More Nurofen please)
There are those scientists who will tell you that mathematics is a universal constant and that everything you see around you e.g. the rings of Saturn the design on a butterfly’s wings is all down to numbers. And no matter how hard you try to think about stuff you still end up with an equation or two at the end.

Evolution is a sticky subject to me. Yes Charles Darwin is a clever man, but, ever since I was a small boy I have had trouble getting my head around the Origin of Species. And where I get stuck is the part which says mankind has evolved from apes.

So how did Neanderthal man go from scratching around in the dirt to walking on the moon?

Evolution of the brain is a plausible explanation, as more and more synaptic pathways became active we became cleverer. Building simple tools, and learning how to grow crops etc. However if you compare our evolution to that of the dinosaurs the numbers don’t add up. The dinosaurs took tens of millions of years to evolve. We have done it in the blink of an eye. I’d say ten thousand years ago was the turning point for man. Since the Ice age we have come along in leaps and bounds, a blink of an eye compared to the dinosaurs.
The trouble is when you start talking about how we became intelligent it leaves the subject open to all kinds of theories Aliens, God, bigfoot tec.

How did free will come about? There are those who believe that free will was given to us by the devil. Free will is a wonderful thing to have provided you know what to do with it. We are all familiar with the expression of putting our mouth into gear before our brain has chance to catch up. To me free will is the ability to live your life the way you want to live it. Although it’s a sad fact that most of us live our lives they way we need to not want to. By that I mean a lot of people have jobs they hate and would love to do something different. However circumstances dictate that certain aspects of free will are not available e.g. that cushy office job.
Come to think about it, in today’s world even in the so called free democratic countries free will is controlled. It is my free will which allows me to go down to the job centre today and land a job interview. However it is someone else’s free will which will decide whether I get that job. And if I don’t get that job then I’m stuck back at square on in my dead end factory job.
People use free will to stop others from achieving goals, because they see it as threatening their own free will.
Free will has always been present. If Neanderthal man wanted to go out and kill a woolly mammoth to feed the kinds and get the other half a fur coat then that’s exactly what he did.

Back to basics and why you started this post Zorro. You said that you believe in God.

Let me put this question to all people reading this post. ‘What actually is god?’ Outside of reading the bible and learning through the media, internet, Sunday School, Church etc how much do you actually know about god.
In the bible God created the heavens and earth. So what was God doing before he created the heavens and the earth. He must have been bored silly sitting there in the midst of nothingness which incidentally contains nothing. And why didn’t he create the heavens and earth earlier what made him wake up one day and suddenly decide he was going to bring everything into being.

There’s a wonderful line in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy where the film mentions a trilogy of books. ‘Where God went wrong’ ‘Some more of God’s mistakes’ and ‘Who is this god person anyway?’

I believe everyone on this planet believes in something whether it be God, Aliens or England winning the next world cup. If someone tells you they don’t believe in anything it’s a load of old Hogwarts. They must believe in something no matter how bizarre. Every human on this planet has questioned where they originate from and has come up with their own theory. I can’t explain it I just believe it.

Just to let you know Zorro that this is probably one of the best posts I have seen. But the thing that puzzles me is why Bob has yet to say anything.

So long and thanks for all the fish

I don't believe that we are any more intelligent than past generations, we just have more knowledge. Each generation builds on the knowledge base of previous generations.

Over the centuries evil people have tried to suppress the truth of God's word and the Christian Gospel. However, despite their best efforts the Gospel is still being spread today. This is being done in a number of ways: One to one, radio and TV broadcasts, internet, literature (including tracts). Sinners are being saved and God's purpose to draw the elect to Himself is being fulfilled.

No one can stop the Gospel being spread and all the elect being gathered into the fold.

I can't understand why this last post (22) was put in this thread; I opened a new one. Also the time is wrong.

I started a new thread called "God's truth will stand". I put that post in that one.

Jason Chapman wondered why I haven't said anything on the God or Science thread. I would suggest going into google and typing "answers in Genesis". You will come into a web site set up by scientists who believe in creation.

My bet is to save space.
This is an economy class forum after all.

Interesting topic Zoro – i find myseld the same boat as you, I believe in god but I don’t bludgeon people over the head with this fact – I get a little flack from my friends on occasion about it, but that’s to be expected and their points are always very valid.

I think its just easier I live with the idea of both.
Though I’ve never liked the big bang.
And it’s not just because he says inappropriate things at dinner parties.
You know.. the dinner parties I don’t have.
Thanks a lot Mr bang -.-.

Bob, its pointless arguing with you because you are not interested in anyones opinion if it doesn't include the word of god

In brief reply to Jason, I believe God is a higher power, a metaphysical entity, an intelligent designer.

I define "nothing" as the absence of all matter.

I admittedly cannot prove that God exists by direct affirmative evidence (i.e., I have never seen God and I don't know anyone credible who has), but I disagree with atheists who argue that the lack of affirmative evidence of God's existence is proof that God does not exist -- for two main reasons.

The first reason is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The second reason is that I believe the infinite nature of the universe and the symmetry, complexity and order of the universe, of earth, and of all flora and fauna on earth, especially human beings, are circumstantial evidence of an intelligent designer.

I have used the following analogy before to illustrate what I mean by circumstantial evidence in this context. If you visit a distant planet uninhabited by any life form and you see a car on that planet -- let's say a Jaguar with UK license plates -- it is reasonable for you to conclude that human beings were once on that planet without ever seeing a human being there. In my view, there is ample circumstantial evidence of God in the universe and on earth.

Question:

Where is the loneliest you have ever been on this planet?

For me it has to be the Nevada desert 12 years ago. Beautiful place yet hostile environment. There was no one around for miles.
Its moment like this I do get the sense that I am not completely alone. However I am positive it isn't the God we all read about in the bible and all that stuff. I'm reading an interesting book at the moment called Knights of the Black &White. Its all about the first crusades and the sacking of Jerusalem. One knight who is horrified by what he sees on both sides and becomes a monk. There is a disturbing passage in which the French knights are killing everyone they find, and our main hero comes across a nobal man who has just killed this eight year girl and proceeds to rape her, screaming its God's will, its God's will. Our hero promptly takes his head off.
There's also a good line in it which states. 'If I am allowed to pray to God in my own way, then I have no use for priests or the church'
Like I have said before I think everyone has a sense of something or a higher influence looking down on them. Its up to the individual to accept whether its the god we have all been brought up to believe in.

'God an intelligent designer' I like the sound of that.

I've been to the Nevada and Arizona deserts and I've been lost all alone in the Congolese jungle, but the loneliest I've ever felt was in my Manhattan apartment on May 8, 2005, when I learned that my mother had died.

As you say "anyone's opinion". It is just that, a statement that is not in line with God's word is an opinion. God's word is fact.

Is every word in the Old Testament and in the New Testament "God's word"?

Gods word is fact, without the aid of a bible prove it Bob. I can prove the world is round, scientific fact. I can prove the pacific ocean is deep, scientific fact. I can prove that if I let go of an object from a height it will drop to the ground, scientific fact.
So Bob without that bible of yours prove that God's word is fact. Come do think of it how does the bible explain the dinosaurs?

Jason it doesnt. Also how does the bible explain the millions of other earth-like planets? the millions of suns? how do it explain the galaxy?

I want names and sources (and they canot be from the bible)

OK so it does not mention other planets in the Bible, but have you read the updated version yet?

there should be a UPDATED ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

I'm a bit confused here. How can the Bible be updated? It was written 2000 nearly by those who saw what went on. Unless there are still ancient sacred text somewhere it cannot be updated. If you keep on adding to it over the years then the original writings get diluted and the bible becomes just another story book. Surely if you are a true believer you cannot update and amend the word of God.

I've yet to meet anyone, let alone an Atheist, who believes they have proof that God doesn't exist.




I don't believe that any scientist on earth thinks that they have the absolute answer to any of these questions. A scientist forms a theory & then tests his theory in as many ways as he can. He then publishes his theory with his evidence where people can agree with it or not. His theory then sits there waiting to be disproved by the next theory. This is how scientific knowledge advances.

The Bible claims to have all the answers in one book. No proof, no logic, just dogma. If people then question these answers & try to test them or even ridicule them, then it's called blasphemy.

I'm afraid I just can't believe the Bible, it goes against everything I believe to be true. The fact that science doesn't have all the answers either, makes no difference to me. I refuse to believe what I consider to be a bad theory simply because, at the moment, there isn't a better one.

First thing is, the Bible was written by men, "Jewish men" not by God, Who are Gods chosen people? Who says they are? Jewish men of course. You've got to admit its highly unlikely they are gona slag them selves are they.

Whether its Gods words, or the Jewish gentleman's word is debatable to say the least, or at least certain parts of it, and then again which Bible are you referring to, take your pick, there is a decent choice, if the Bible is all Gods word why are there so many different versions?

The Church is an evil organization in my opinion, its an evil Capitalist organization, that puts money before anything, even the welfare of children, why do you think its the richest charitable organization in the world?

If the church was a charitable organization, that money would have gone to the poor and needy, not the sure and greedy. The Church in my opinion represents neither Jesus nor God, it represents its evil greedy self. The Church and the Bible are only as good as the people who have control over them.

The Church slipped up centuries ago, when it put down on parchment how it told priests to lie, about certain texts in the scriptures, you can not believe one word that is sanctioned by the church, trust me.

Keep your eyes on Bush's buddy Ratsinger, he'll prove to you in time, that ime right on that score.


After saying all that, can i still believe in God? yes of course i can, its mans part in all this, thats the doubtful bit.

Regarding an updated version, there is,nt one......yet, but an updated version is well over due, there have been quite a few new finds regarding lost Gospels since about 1945 ish, not to mention the Gospels that were found originally and deliberately kept secret by the Church. The true or full story i think, has yet to be told.

The reason you don't believe the Bible is because the Devil has blinded you. Unless God, in His mercy, opens your eyes you will not believe.

The updated bible should be wrote by Marcus Brigstocke, if you know what i mean (did anyone see the late edition nativity play?).

But i do believe in the basic teachings of the Bible, i do believe in God and i do believe in Jesus Christ, i just also happen to believe that the many inconsistencies in the Bible are probably caused by man.

Further more to put things in your own terms, its the Devil that has made man alter Gods good word, and therefore made people like my self doubt, that God exists, by putting in those contradictions.

Now if that is the case you would be doing the Devils work, by telling people to believe in every thing that is in the Bible, i know it a big IF, but it is a possibility.

Why were some of the Gospel texts left out of the Bible by the worlds clergy?

Why were the Cathors slaughtered en mass?


Do you not accept that the Bible has contradictions with in it?



I have not seen it, was it on TV?

There are no contradictions in the Bible. If you believe there are then you are not saved.

Yes TT it was on BBC4 before christmas...

YES I WATCH BBC4

I believe you are wrong to say that Bob, i would love to believe every word therein, but i do have serious doubts.

I never saw that program Fire, i wished i had though.

TT Thursday night around 10:30

The statistical likelyhood of it all being coincidence were billions of trillions to one.

The likelihood of what being coincidence?

Whether there is something higher we shall never know (unless death gives us the answers), however, I believe the Bible/ Koran and other religious beliefs are man made. If there is something out there then it is beyond our understanding. We should keep an open mind and not be subservient to anything. Religion has a history of murder, manipulation and control.

I go with the science everytime.

Did you heard about the new sins the Church put out recently, strangely Kiddy Fiddling was one of them.

A bit hypocritical, isn't it? After all, they've denied any knowledge - for years - that such a think was happening in their Churches.