Do you think some people who are intelligent, sensible, no danger to themselves, no danger to anyone else, able to look after themselves, may be being held in psychiatric hospitals in the UK and injected with drugs against their will for not conforming to social norms ('unable to look after themselves')?

I think the question is contradictory - you say that they are able to look after themselves and then qualify your definition of not conforming to social norms as ' ('unable to look after themselves') '.

Could you possibly clarify by giving an example of what you mean?

not anymore, those we are under sections are they because their doctors see no other options, it is not policy to bring clients into hospital, unless there is no other options

In the absence of a better understanding of what the question meant, I agree with you Ice.

The cost associated with the care of people with even severe mental health problems and the move towards Care in the Community makes it far more likely that people who do need help are not getting it rather than the other way around.

What has the mental health of people got to do with "social conditioning"?

Social conditioning is what we do to children, we teach then our values so as to prepare them for life in our social group.


But to return to the original question and examine it.

Why would hospitals want to keep perfectly sane and mentaly healthy people drugged up?

Or have I got to move this thread to the conspiracies section?

I was thinking of something similar: why on earth would mental health institutions - the first of any cuts to the NHS - want to lock up perfectly healthy people?

Well I've had a moment or two to think about what Ordy is trying to say...or what I think he's trying to say.

And I have the following response.

People who are in the "care of the community" and kept on drugs/medication/whatever, are usually kept that way...not to "keep them within the social norm" (whatever that is!!) for the sake of the state(?)...it's because if you take them off those drugs...if you are lucky...really lucky...the only thing they will do is kill themselves.

Now you can be harsh and say "so what? No loss"...but is that the kind of society you want to live in really?

Have a look at the chances of anyone needing psychiatric help duing their life (It's high)...it could be you.


And let's have another "reality check" while we are here. Most crimes/murders/social deviances/whatever are commited by sane people...or what is considered sane by society. I have my doubts about society being sane, but that's another story.

Are psychiatric hospitals not designed for people with mental health problems then? Maybe I misread the question but I assumed that if there were any truth to the scenario that Ophadeus proposed, the grounds for keeping people locked up would be based on mental health issues rather than social norms or conditioning - certainly as recorded on their records in this day and age anyway.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that this has always been the case though. It's been well documented that in the past single mothers and their illegitimate offspring have been known to be institutionalised in psychiatric hospitals, in some cases for the rest of their lives, for their perceived inability to conform to social norms. This is part of the reason why I agreed with Ice when she said, "not anymore" in her response.

As for your question, "Why would hospitals want to keep perfectly sane and mentaly healthy people drugged up?", I don't think they would... particularly because of the costs involved.

As for whether it should be sent to the conspiracies section... you'll have to take that up with Orphadeus

Does Awphy think that mental illness just means `not as the norm`?
As in perfectly healthy, just not like `the norm`?

Maybe hinting that people are wrongly judged as having a mental illness when actually they dont?

Isnt that was he is getting at?

You are of course quite right in that. I only looked at todays attitude, not a historical one.

I think awphs getting worried and he is planning for the future

Possibly.

But the chances of someone just not conforming to the norm being mistaken for mentally ill I think is quite slim.

The days of it being just one doctors (psychiatrist) opinion on any case just doesn't happen. Unless I'm mistaken the scenario is...a consultant and a whole team of doctors and nurses ect. They DO discuss whatever the patient has bothering him/her.

Yeah, but Im thinking Awph may be biased about that.

just say wha you mean, hes a nutter

Well he's got the choices.

Trust the insitutions and doctors to help/heal/cure/whatever.

Or let those with mental illnesess be classed as socially "different"...and let them take their chances.

My councellor and my doctor have very different opinions on depression.
So what does that say??

Counselor = Psychologist?

Doctor = Medical?

Doesn't surprise me I'm afraid. Two very different approaches there. The doctor will probably (I think) prescribe tablets?...The counselor will say "stuff it!...go and get pissed with a good friend"


(I'm working from memory here on this quote so give me a break if I'm slightly out)

Terry Pratchett a humorous writer summed this difference between the two practices using a witch as what might be called the psychologist.

" A psychiatrist when faced with a patient that claims to be being chased by a big monster, will try to find out why the patient is being chased, and the nature of the monster. Granny Weatherwax would just give him a big stick and a chair to stand on and let him sort it out himself."

"The counselor will say "stuff it!...go and get pissed with a good friend"

Im glad my councellor is a bit better than that, LOL


Surely they cant both be right though?

Yep.

Is the problem a chemical imbalance?...or just (I dunno) "world weariness"?

Find out which it is and see the relevant practitioner.

Aaaah, see there is the paradox.

The Doc thinks its imbalance, the councellor beleive that doesnt exist and that its a coping mechanism. So if they cant decide which expert am I s`posed to listen to?

I actually believe the councellor, but for arguments sake, dont you think this is a bit....wrong?

It's a matter of approach; so I'd say that they can both be right, from their points of view.

It's a bit like the elephant and 3 blind men story - the first one grasps the tail and says it's a rope; the second the leg of the elephant, which he claims to be a tree; and the third the trunk - but I can't remember what non-elephant-related object he claims it is. But you get the idea

Yeah they were blind and all 3 get the wrong idea?

Don't know

Don't know how you'd find out what it really was...that's beyond my experiences.

They got different ideas based on their perspective - actually, though, it's not like the story in the case of depression. Scrub the elephant story - and stick with HQ's way: one looks at it from as brain chemistry and hands out SSRIs; the other sees it as a mental problem to do with the way you think (or at least a therapist, if not a counsellor, would). Both have about the same sort of success rate, as far as I understand.

Oh thats ok, I really do think the councellor has hit the nail on the head.

Im just worried that one of them could be wrong for another person tho, if the experts cant agree where does that leave the layman?

I guess you have to hunt around and find what works for you. Lewis Wolpert's Malignant Sadness explains it all very well

Flip a coin...heads go see the doctor...tails the counselor. If after treatment the problem persist...see the other one instead.

Guess so.

My therapist practises Adlerian Councelling- I think it has amazing fascinating insights into depressing.

Shocked me!

you been smoking some of awph's stash.

off topic




go granny my hero

Elixir?...look...whatever problems you have got, if it's not a chemical imbalance, just click onto BUKF and read easylifes postings...and you'll see whatever you think your psychological problems are, they pale into insignificance compared to his.

Hahahahaah!

You trying to tell me something. Ill have you now there is nowt wrong with my faculties, infact id say thats a quiet slanderous statement and i demand an apology. saying im madder than elixir, well im speechless.

Really?...oh

So you can call Ordy a nutter, that's ok.

Someone mentions you...it's apology time.

Seems fair to me...does it to you?

No, the difference is where awphs posts his rambling, they are total nonsense. If i recall correctly, you even stated that you could go mad trying to work out the meaning.

There is a big difference, but i suppose if i says like that about you, then my warning count will increase, so whats the point. if you cant see any difference, that that just goes to show what type of person you are.

Do you really think I think you have problems?...get real...If I really thought you had some problem I'd say sod all.

Or are you just looking for arguments?

Me, sorry, i thought it was you that started by calling my none existant "psychological problems" into this thread.
Dont you just hate people with a god complex

I think that even after all this time...we really don't know each other very well.

well all I can say is............its good to see the two nutters on the board are northerners

Thats right. I've got a friend on a section 3 (6 months minimum) getting injected against her will and theres no excuse for it unless you think being homeless due to a financial mess up you get upset to your doctor (big mistake) about and not conforming to your controlling families wishes are dangerous mental illness. She didn't harm anyone, is not likely to harm anyone, did not harm herself, is not likely to harm herself, is intelligent and sensible and chose freedom rather than her families control/expectations. Still, its safer to have people like that in psychiatric hospitals than dangerous people, and much more congenial.

I knew someone who got 3 different diagnosis from 3 different doctors.

I think Harlequin and Oolongcha are right when they say it's a matter of perspective - both because the term 'depression' is used in an umbrella fashion to describe the symptoms of more than one set of circumstances and because your likelihood of being diagnosed with depression in the first place can be affected by other factors... gender for example. Personally I think that the medical profession is more likely to initially diagnose a woman with depression and offer anti-depressants, without considering other options, than it would a man in whom the same symptoms are often referred to as stress.

I think the answer you're looking for comes down to the difference between clinical depression (chemical imbalance) and reactive depression (relating to your own personal circumstances) and you're the only one who can answer that based on what's been discussed in this thread.

I'm sorry I've got no time left, but as a layperson I'd suggest that you ask yourself if it's negative feelings that are affecting your life experience - or your life experience is producing your negative feelings? That's what I'd do anyway.

i am sure you will find there is more too this, then that, you are her friend it is hard to see our friends with problems, she may be hiding them from you, or maybe she is so confused she doesn't understand the true nature of her problems, but i will repeat myself, no one is sectioned unless there really is no choice

Dump them. Don't tell them anything. From my observations, caring professionals are lethal sh*t. Anything you say to them can be twisted, turned and used against you. They can seem really nice then stick the knife right in. They're particularly dangerous if you have a child. For example, lets say you have a child, the child falls at a playground. You take the child to the doctors/hospital to be checked. Social Services are informed and get involved. They have access to your medical files and will not hezitate to use them against you. Sorry if thats depressing but its true.

now you are being silly for all the jobs there is the ones in caring and social work are the hardest, having to deal with really tough issues all the time and try to make the right choice,

Get real: http://www.forced-adoption.com/child-snatchers.asp

i am being real, all you are doing are focusing on the times were mistakes are made not the majorite of cases where they act the right way, as those are not news storys no one hears about them,

you are only looking at the issues from one side, and not seeing the whole picture, with your friend

A friend of mine recently had tried to commit suicide several times. His brother died by hanging himself from a tree. After his last attempt he (my friend) was committed for 30 days. He was released after 12, and killed himself on the 28th day.

Now i would seriously hope that the person who took his bed after him needed it and wasnt just there because some professionals thought they werent socially normal, and to be honest it really seems quite warped that in this day and age that sort of thing goes on.. but who knows

i am very sorry to hear about your friend, and can understand your concern, but the facts are doctors do not like to keep clients in longer then they have to. because the problems which are causing the issues are usually still there when a client comes out, it is must better when things can be delt with outside, however it is sometimes the case there is no other options. in your friends case all i can say is he must of made good process inside, but was not able to cope outside, the supprt he should of recived was not good enough, or he was very determined like alot of clients can be.

I'm sure you're right and that usually these things work. But the person i was talking about, he was apparently saying all the right things inside.. while later getting hold of a mobile phone which he wasnt supposed to have in there, and calling up his estranged wife threatening to kill her and their child. When she called up the hospital to tell them what was going on, they ignored it.

Slightly diverting from the subject there and i apologise but with situations like that going on, the wrong people (ie not mentally ill) had best not be in places like this

lack of communication between staff is a problem in all fields, unfortunately in this field it is one problem which should not exist, resulting in massive mistakes like this
i can only say this is one area which i know is always been looked at hoping to inprove matters